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Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question
Rick,
I guess nulling FM or AM hash is the same. I have tried to get "any" hash at this location. To date I have still never detected any. Now, it could be that the hash is so weak not the detect. If the hash on FM is 1%, then 500- 1,000 watts of digital hash on FM at 130 miles, probably there would be little left. AM is sure a lot different in that. Even the very weak signals adjacent to HD stations I can hear. An example is 88.3 next to HD 88.1.
Patrick
Patrick Martin
Seaside OR
KGED QSL Manager
> From: ricklew@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> To: irca@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 05:44:59 -0700
> Subject: Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question
>
> Pat,
> To me it sounds like you have the ideal FM situation.
> The benefits of HD without the massive interference.
> You'll get plenty of skip on those adjacents, too.
> In the city itself, the HD hash is so strong that it wipes out most
> adjacents, unless a way is found to null it somewhat.
> I calculated once that 42 channels (out of a total of 100 FM channels) are
> significantly blocked for me in Seattle by HD hash.
> At one time that would have meant just 21 local frequencies, but since all
> HD signals effectively take up three frequencies, that means there are 63
> frequencies blocked locally instead of the 21 there would have been without
> the encroachment of HD.
> As for smaller cities, with the exception of public stations that can get
> grants to install HD, you're right, the economics don't favor it in many
> cases.
> The purchase of a new transmitter at over a hundred grand, plus licensing
> fees for the technology, make it hard to justify, although some owners will
> do it since it allows them to use a loophole that lets them apply for a
> translator to retransmit the HD signal in analog.
> I'll hold back regarding my opinions on _that_, since we've probably already
> discussed this too much on an AM-related list.
> --
> Rick
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: IRCA [mailto:irca-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Patrick
> Martin
> Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 10:33 PM
> To: IRCA
> Subject: Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question
>
> Rick,
>
> I am really amazed that I easily turn the Yagi to the NE, and I lose 94.9 &
> 96.5 Seaside and get Seattle. In fact both for a time yesterday I got the
> sub channels they offer. I may stack two of the FM6, if I can figure out how
> to stack three antennas on one pole. I also have a UHF Yagi. But I think the
> height would be an issue. The pole would have to be 18 feet rather than my
> 15 feet. I do not know if I could keep it up in our winds.
>
> Patrick Martin
> Seaside OR
> KGED QSL Manager
>
> > From: ricklew@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > To: irca@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 07:15:15 -0700
> > Subject: Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question
> >
> > Patrick,
> > You're also really benefiting from the gain your antenna is providing,
> > favoring the distant signals and somewhat nulling your locals.
> > Most FM HD users won't have that benefit.
> > --
> > Rick
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: IRCA [mailto:irca-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Rick
> > Lewis
> > Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 7:05 AM
> > To: 'Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America'
> > Subject: Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question
> >
> > Hi Patrick,
> > Sounds to me like you're working with, and benefiting from, very
> > narrow filters on your FM.
> > At least in my experience with the Sony X-drs3Hd and other radios at
> > their factory settings without extra filtering, if an HD decodes,
> > adjacents won't be heard.
> > Granted, Seattle doesn't have trop the way the Northeast or southern
> > California does.
> > The Sony filters out much of the HD noise, but adjacents are still
> > covered up.
> > I also have a Tecsun portable CR-1100. Unusually, it doesn't filter
> > out the HD noise on adjacents.
> > I'm sure most people find those huge blocks of noise objectionable,
> > but not me, because most of the time you can tell how well you're
> > nulling out the HD adjacent. Some HD signals are misleading, but in
> > many cases, even strong HD signals can be nulled out enough to that a
> > semistrong station can defeat them.
> > I'm blind, so I can't say how well the Sonys indicate nulling visually
> > and whether this can be helpful.
> > But with the CR-1100 it's easy to audibly determine when an HD
> > adjacent is being nulled.
> > On the Sony it's not.
> > --
> > Rick
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: IRCA [mailto:irca-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Mike
> > Hawkins
> > Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 1:51 AM
> > To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America
> > Subject: Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question
> >
> > I don't get hash on distant FM stations, but there really isn't hash at
> all.
> > Its a blanking of adjacents. You have to remember too that they are
> > using lower power for the digital components. If they up the power,
> > you'll get the full force of the signal.
> >
> > They try to convince us that this is the future of radio, but the last
> > thing I want is to know whether Rush Limbaugh is wheezing. AM is
> > sports or conservative talk. FM is I-Heart-Monopoly. If it weren't
> > for skip, I would listen exclusively to the all-news station until I got
> bored with it.
> > Outside of the DX groups, I don't even know anyone who listens to
> > radio anymore. I know nobody who even owns a HD radio. They have had
> > years to get one, so where are they. I think the only thing that HD
> > radio has really accomplished is to lose all of the non-locals and
> > semi-locals in the noise left behind by the artifacts.
> >
> > The fidelity doesn't matter if the choices are non-existent. Elvis
> > left the building years ago.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 1:11 AM, Patrick Martin <mwdxer@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >
> > > Thanks Mike. It sounds like, at least in your case, the FM IBOC
> > > noise is an issue if on a local station. Do you get any IBOC FM Hash
> > > on distant stations? As I mentioned, even the powerful 88.1 from
> > > Newport down the coast, it is stable and I get both channels FM1 &
> > > FM2, yet on
> > > 88.3 I hear a mix of Portland and some translator. I have compared a
> > > non-IBOC near an IBOC, both distant signals and I do not notice
> > > anything different. The hash must be wiped out at some distance
> > > then. I am
> > glad we have no IBOC locally.
> > > At least for now. Our stations for the most part have little money,
> > > so I doubt we will get any soon. Two stations do run RDS though.
> > > KFMY
> > > 99.7 I never detected the RDS before I got the FM6 up. The other is
> > > KOAC FM 89.7 and they are strong in RDS.
> > >
> > > Patrick Martin
> > > Seaside OR
> > > KGED QSL Manager
> > >
> > > > Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 00:57:49 -0700
> > > > From: michael.d.hawkins@xxxxxxxxx
> > > > To: irca@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > Subject: Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question
> > > >
> > > > To me, FM IBOC is like bacon sizzling as its cooking. It not as
> > > obnoxious
> > > > as it is on AM, but it has the same effect. As an example, 97.3
> > > > in San Francisco (xmtr 20 or so miles away) runs IBOC. It does
> > > > not have obvious artifacts on adjacent channels. If they turn it
> > > > off (as they sometimes do), I immediately have a strong signal
> > > > from Visalia CA (200 miles away) and a RDS readout. I don't get
> > > > RDS on 97.5, but I also get a strong
> > > signal
> > > > from 97.5 in Merced about 130 miles away. Its effect is as bad on
> > > > FM as
> > > it
> > > > is on AM. You just don't notice how bad it really is until you
> > > > can do an IBOC on/IBOC off comparison.
> > > >
> > > > I have a college station on 91.1 that uses HD 1 mile away from me.
> > > > I cannot get the Sacramento powerhouse on 90.9 until I am 15-20
> > > > miles away, and if I hear anything at all on 91.3, I know its skip.
> > > > The Stockton station on 91.3 NEVER comes in at all.
> > > >
> > > > Mike Hawkins
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 12:33 AM, Patrick Martin
> > > > <mwdxer@xxxxxxxxx>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > This is a bit off tropic, but I know some of you DX FM at times.
> > > > > I just got an FM6 yagi up and I am very impressed with the Sony
> > > > > XFR
> > radio.
> > > Between
> > > > > the filters and sensitivity, it leaves my old Pioneer TX9100 in
> > > > > the
> > > dust
> > > > > (1970s). Anyway, out here on the Northern Oregon Coast we have
> > > > > no AM
> > > or FM
> > > > > HD stations. The nearest are Newport (100 miles), Portland (75
> > > > > miles),
> > > or
> > > > > Seattle (130 miles). I have received several FM stations in HD.
> > > > > A few
> > > stay
> > > > > locked and others come and go. But so far I have not detected
> > > > > any hash
> > > on
> > > > > adjacent frequencies. None. The tuner is very selective and
> sensitive.
> > > I
> > > > > can easily get weak stations next to locals without any splash.
> > > > > The HD signals like 95.7 Seattle, I can easily get 95.9 Bay City
> > > > > OR, and so
> > > on. AM
> > > > > IBOC hash is horrible as we all know and covers great distances.
> > > > > Off
> > > the
> > > > > Eastern Beverage I have heard IBOC hash from the Midwest at night.
> > > > > But
> > > so
> > > > > far nothing on FM. This is my first shot at hearing FM HD. One
> > > > > thing I
> > > will
> > > > > say, the FM dial is sure a l
> > > > > ot different than it was 20 years ago. Translators all over the
> > > > > place along with some LPFMs. By the way, I do find FM HD to be
> > > > > touchy, as I
> > > get
> > > > > nothing in HD from Portland over the Coast range, not even a
> > > > > flashing
> > > HD
> > > > > symbol. But Seattle from Cougar & Tiger Mountains come in much
> > > stronger. I
> > > > > have even caught several with their sub channels. But does FM
> > > > > IBOC hash cause as much noise locally? It sure does not carry very
> far.
> > > > > I cannot
> > > wait
> > > > > for my first E Skip as I might get a taste of "local" sounding
> > > > > station
> > > in
> > > > > HD. Thanks.
> > > > >
> > > > > Patrick
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Patrick Martin
> > > > > Seaside OR
> > > > > KGED QSL Manager
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