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Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question

Subject: Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question
From: Patrick Martin <mwdxer@xxxxxxxxx>
Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 04:14:16 -0700
Delivered-to: archive@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Delivered-to: irca@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Russ,

That is bad. No wonder I have heard that the FM Dial in metro areas are a wasteland when it comes to DXing. I would guess it would be worse than AM, as there are a lot less IBOC on AM than FM.  I sure hope we do not get any locals running IBOC here.

Patrick Martin
Seaside OR
KGED QSL Manager

> Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 06:37:57 -0400
> From: wb2bjh@xxxxxxxxx
> To: irca@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question
> 
> I have 18 locals or close semi-locals running IBOC. Their hash kills
> another 35 channels, so I lose 53 at the start. I am between 7 and 10 miles
> from most of the local transmitters, all line-of-sight.
> 
> I'm sure there are worse cases, but this is bad enough.
> 
> Russ Edmunds
> 15 mi NW Phila
> Grid FN20id
> <wb2bjh@xxxxxxxxx>
> 
> AM: Modified Sony ICF2010's (2) barefoot w/whip
> FM: Yamaha T-80 & T-85, each w/ Conrad RDS Decoder;
> Onkyo T-450RDS; Tecsun PL-310 ( 2);
> modified Sony ICF2010 w/APS9B @ 15';
> Grundig G8 w/whip; modified Sony ICF2010 w/whip
> 
> 
> On Tue, May 19, 2015 at 1:22 AM, Patrick Martin <mwdxer@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> 
> > Thanks Russ. So then it does look like I am too far to get the HD hash.
> > That pleases me as reports from FM DXers in Urban areas stated that FM DX
> > is nearly useless with the number of locals and add to that the HD hash. It
> > seems a lot of urban stations run HD. Here I do not have any locally and
> > none of the Portland stations even show the HD logo. They are too weak.
> > Seattle does, and it varies from time to time how many I get to lock in HD.
> > FM IBOC hash is a lot different than AM hash. Too bad AM is not the same.
> > It would make DXing easier.
> >
> > Patrick
> >
> > Patrick Martin
> > Seaside OR
> > KGED QSL Manager
> >
> > > Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 07:13:38 -0400
> > > From: wb2bjh@xxxxxxxxx
> > > To: irca@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Subject: Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question
> > >
> > > Typically, the IBOC hash on FM won't make it as far as you're talking
> > > about, Patrick. I find that I can drive west and I will lose the hash on
> > > the adjacents well before I start to have trouble with the ( analog,
> > since
> > > I don't have HD capability ) readability on the primary. Others who have
> > > the Sonys report that the filtering remove a lot of it anyway - they can
> > > usually hear stations adjacent to those having IBOC unless they have the
> > > antenna aimed too close.
> > >
> > > Russ Edmunds
> > > 15 mi NW Phila
> > > Grid FN20id
> > > <wb2bjh@xxxxxxxxx>
> > >
> > > AM: Modified Sony ICF2010's (2) barefoot w/whip
> > > FM: Yamaha T-80 & T-85, each w/ Conrad RDS Decoder;
> > > Onkyo T-450RDS; Tecsun PL-310 ( 2);
> > > modified Sony ICF2010 w/APS9B @ 15';
> > > Grundig G8 w/whip; modified Sony ICF2010 w/whip
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 4:50 AM, Mike Hawkins <
> > michael.d.hawkins@xxxxxxxxx>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > I don't get hash on distant FM stations, but there really isn't hash at
> > > > all.  Its a blanking of adjacents.  You have to remember too that they
> > are
> > > > using lower power for the digital components.  If they up the power,
> > you'll
> > > > get the full force of the signal.
> > > >
> > > > They try to convince us that this is the future of radio, but the last
> > > > thing I want is to know whether Rush Limbaugh is wheezing.  AM is
> > sports or
> > > > conservative talk.  FM is I-Heart-Monopoly.  If it weren't for skip, I
> > > > would listen exclusively to the all-news station until I got bored with
> > > > it.  Outside of the DX groups, I don't even know anyone who listens to
> > > > radio anymore.  I know nobody who even owns a HD radio.  They have had
> > > > years to get one, so where are they.  I think the only thing that HD
> > radio
> > > > has really accomplished is to lose all of the non-locals and
> > semi-locals in
> > > > the noise left behind by the artifacts.
> > > >
> > > > The fidelity doesn't matter if the choices are non-existent.  Elvis
> > left
> > > > the building years ago.
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 1:11 AM, Patrick Martin <mwdxer@xxxxxxxxx>
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Thanks Mike. It sounds like, at least in your case, the FM IBOC
> > noise is
> > > > > an issue if on a local station. Do you get any IBOC FM Hash on
> > distant
> > > > > stations? As I mentioned, even the powerful 88.1 from Newport down
> > the
> > > > > coast, it is stable and I get both channels FM1 & FM2, yet on 88.3 I
> > > > hear a
> > > > > mix of Portland and some translator. I have compared a non-IBOC near
> > an
> > > > > IBOC, both distant signals and I do not notice anything different.
> > The
> > > > hash
> > > > > must be wiped out at some distance then. I am glad we have no IBOC
> > > > locally.
> > > > > At least for now. Our stations for the most part have little money,
> > so I
> > > > > doubt we will get any soon. Two stations do run RDS though. KFMY
> > 99.7 I
> > > > > never detected the RDS before I got the FM6 up. The other is KOAC FM
> > 89.7
> > > > > and they are strong in RDS.
> > > > >
> > > > > Patrick Martin
> > > > > Seaside OR
> > > > > KGED QSL Manager
> > > > >
> > > > > > Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 00:57:49 -0700
> > > > > > From: michael.d.hawkins@xxxxxxxxx
> > > > > > To: irca@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question
> > > > > >
> > > > > > To me, FM IBOC is like bacon sizzling as its cooking.  It not as
> > > > > obnoxious
> > > > > > as it is on AM, but it has the same effect.  As an example, 97.3
> > in San
> > > > > > Francisco (xmtr 20 or so miles away) runs IBOC.  It does not have
> > > > obvious
> > > > > > artifacts on adjacent channels.  If they turn it off (as they
> > sometimes
> > > > > > do), I immediately have a strong signal from Visalia CA (200 miles
> > > > away)
> > > > > > and a RDS readout.  I don't get RDS on 97.5, but I also get a
> > strong
> > > > > signal
> > > > > > from 97.5 in Merced about 130 miles away.  Its effect is as bad on
> > FM
> > > > as
> > > > > it
> > > > > > is on AM.  You just don't notice how bad it really is until you
> > can do
> > > > an
> > > > > > IBOC on/IBOC off comparison.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have a college station on 91.1 that uses HD 1 mile away from
> > me.  I
> > > > > > cannot get the Sacramento powerhouse on 90.9 until I am 15-20 miles
> > > > away,
> > > > > > and if I hear anything at all on 91.3, I know its skip.  The
> > Stockton
> > > > > > station on 91.3 NEVER comes in at all.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Mike Hawkins
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 12:33 AM, Patrick Martin <mwdxer@xxxxxxxxx
> > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > This is a bit off tropic, but I know some of you DX FM at times.
> > I
> > > > just
> > > > > > > got an FM6 yagi up and I am very impressed with the Sony XFR
> > radio.
> > > > > Between
> > > > > > > the filters and sensitivity, it leaves my old Pioneer TX9100 in
> > the
> > > > > dust
> > > > > > > (1970s). Anyway, out here on the Northern Oregon Coast we have
> > no AM
> > > > > or FM
> > > > > > > HD stations. The nearest are Newport (100 miles), Portland (75
> > > > miles),
> > > > > or
> > > > > > > Seattle (130 miles). I have received several FM stations in HD.
> > A few
> > > > > stay
> > > > > > > locked and others come and go. But so far I have not detected any
> > > > hash
> > > > > on
> > > > > > > adjacent frequencies. None. The tuner is very selective and
> > > > sensitive.
> > > > > I
> > > > > > > can easily get weak stations next to locals without any splash.
> > The
> > > > HD
> > > > > > > signals like 95.7 Seattle, I can easily get 95.9 Bay City OR,
> > and so
> > > > > on. AM
> > > > > > > IBOC hash is horrible as we all know and covers great distances.
> > Off
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > Eastern Beverage I have heard IBOC hash from the Midwest at
> > night..
> > > > But
> > > > > so
> > > > > > > far nothing on FM. This is my first shot at hearing FM HD. One
> > thing
> > > > I
> > > > > will
> > > > > > > say, the FM dial is sure a l
> > > > > > >  ot different than it was 20 years ago. Translators all over the
> > > > place
> > > > > > > along with some LPFMs. By the way, I do find FM HD to be touchy,
> > as I
> > > > > get
> > > > > > > nothing in HD from Portland over the Coast range, not even a
> > flashing
> > > > > HD
> > > > > > > symbol. But Seattle from Cougar & Tiger Mountains come in much
> > > > > stronger. I
> > > > > > > have even caught several with their sub channels. But does FM
> > IBOC
> > > > hash
> > > > > > > cause as much noise locally? It sure does not carry very far. I
> > > > cannot
> > > > > wait
> > > > > > > for my first E Skip as I might get a taste of "local" sounding
> > > > station
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > HD.  Thanks.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Patrick
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Patrick Martin
> > > > > > > Seaside OR
> > > > > > > KGED QSL Manager
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References:
- [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question
  - From: Patrick Martin
- Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question
  - From: Mike Hawkins
- Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question
  - From: Patrick Martin
- Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question
  - From: Mike Hawkins
- Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question
  - From: Russ Edmunds
- Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question
  - From: Patrick Martin
- Re: [IRCA] IBOC Hash AM vs FM OT question
  - From: Russ Edmunds
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